Claimed Lawyer ProfileResponsive Law
Brian M. Anthoney
Silverdale, WA Lawyer with 15 years of experience
Free ConsultationDivorce and Family
University of Washington School of Law and University of Oregon School of Law
I worked as a civil trial lawyer prior to focusing exclusively on family law. I have extensive experience negotiating contentious and emotional cases.
Outside the office, I enjoy gardening, hiking, and spending time with my wife and our two daughters.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial MediaResponsive Law
Heather Forrler
Silverdale, WA Lawyer with 22 years of experience
Arbitration & Mediation, Business, Estate Planning and Family
Seattle University School of Law
Attorney Heather Forrler is the Managing Attorney at Compass Legal Services, P.S., a Kitsap County based law firm located in Silverdale and serving all of the county’s local communities, including Port Orchard, Bremerton, Silverdale, Seabeck, Kingston, Hansville, Poulsbo, Bainbridge Island and surrounding areas. She provides legal advice, consulting and full legal representation as an Estate Planning Attorney, Family Law Attorney, Divorce Lawyer as well as supporting new business startup and incorporation, including serving as Registered Agent for domestic corporations registered with the Secretary of State in Washington State.
Attorney Forrler started in the legal field as a legal assistant in...
Claimed Lawyer Profile
Raphael Igwens Nwokike
Federal Way, WA Lawyer with 22 years of experience
(253) 839-4324
30640 Pacific Highway South, Suite E-3
Federal Way, WA 98003
Family, Immigration, Personal Injury and Workers' Comp
University of Nigeria
www.nwokikelawoffice.com
https://www.nwokikelawoffice.com/
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Brittany Cline
Poulsbo, WA Attorney with 14 years of experience
Free ConsultationUniversity of Baltimore School of Law
Ms. Cline has been serving clients on the Kitsap Penninsula since 2010. She has provided compassionate legal advice and service to individuals struggling financially through her bankruptcy and distressed real estate practice. Additionally, Ms. Cline enjoys a diverse practice including estate planning, business transactions, real estate and contract law.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Mark G. Honeywell
Seattle, WA Lawyer with 57 years of experience
Arbitration & Mediation, Business, Insurance Defense and Personal Injury
University of Washington School of Law
For more than 40 years, Mark Honeywell has been an active litigator with a track record of resolving a wide variety of complex disputes. Over the course of his distinguished career, he has gained experience in a broad array of legal issues as well as a practical understanding of the benefits of resolution. He now devotes his practice full-time to mediations and arbitrations.
As an approved United States District Court Rule 39 mediator, he has successfully mediated and arbitrated hundreds of cases involving personal injury, professional negligence, products liability, real estate and commercial litigation, sexual abuse of minors, and insurance claims...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Scott Ashby
Spokane, WA Attorney with 32 years of experience
220 W Main Ave
Spokane, WA 99201
Divorce and Family
Cornell University
Pacific Northwest Family Law is a client-centered law firm. Our firm combines the accessibility and attentiveness of a small firm with the skill, experience and resources commonly associated with large law firms. Our attorneys listen to you and want to understand your goals for your family’s future. Pacific Northwest Family Law is invested in strategically fighting for the long term well being of our client's families. Pacific Northwest Family Law puts our clients in the driver's seat through constant communication. Your separation or divorce is difficult enough without causing more conflict or fighting in court. Our attorneys...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Vanessa Micol Vanderbrug
Seattle, WA Lawyer with 24 years of experience
Administrative, Employment and Personal Injury
Gonzaga University School of Law
Vanessa Vanderbrug focuses her practice in the areas of employment, administrative law, and personal injury. She dedicates her practice to ensuring that each client receives personal attention and has a full understanding of the issues they face. She has significant general litigation experience and diligently seeks to obtain the best results for her clients.
During law school, Vanessa served on the National Trial Team and on the Editorial Board of the Gonzaga Law Review. She also worked for the Office of the Attorney General as an intern representing the Department of Social and Health Services. After law school, Vanessa obtained “behind...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Katie Ross
Deer Park, WA Attorney with 9 years of experience
Deer Park, WA 99006
Free ConsultationPersonal Injury and Traffic Tickets
Gonzaga University School of Law
We are helping clients by email, phone, and video consultations.
My practice focuses on civil litigation in the areas of personal injury. I represent clients in personal injury cases, such as car and truck accidents, slip and falls, and wrongful death/fatality cases. I also defend individuals facing litigation from accidents.
In employment law, I represent employers in administrative hearings, and defending wrongful termination and discrimination litigation. I also advise employers on issues ahead of litigation.
I represent clients in traffic tickets and infractions in Spokane County.
I offer remote consultations via phone call or Zoom.
Russian Speaking available by appointment.
Social Media
Joshua P Bruner
Divorce and Family
University of Washington School of Law
Joshua (Josh) Bruner, a dedicated Family Law Attorney, is renowned for his unwavering commitment to advocating for his clients and achieving exceptional results. With a formidable skill set encompassing client relations, negotiation, and litigation, Mr. Bruner consistently delivers favorable outcomes through effective communication and meticulous case strategies.
A masterful negotiator beyond the courtroom and a formidable advocate within it, Josh relentlessly champions his clients' causes. He draws upon his unique background, extensive experience, strategic acumen, and exceptional skills to secure outstanding results while always upholding the dignity and respect his clients deserve.
Josh's journey to law was preceded by a career as...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileQ&ASocial Media
Christopher M. Larson
Everett, WA Attorney with 14 years of experience
Free ConsultationBusiness, Elder, Estate Planning and Tax
University of Washington School of Law
Insight Law is a local tax law firm with 4 offices in the greater Seattle area. We handle all tax matters, including those related to Income, Employment, Property, B&O, and Estate and Gift taxes. We pride ourselves on providing the best service, value, and knowing our areas of law inside and out. Whether you have a tax problem or need estate planning or small business services, we can provide efficient, knowledgeable and compassionate representation.
QUALITY: At Insight Law, we provide top-notch representation from experienced attorneys in the Seattle Area.
VALUE: At Insight Law, we use a...
Claimed Lawyer Profile
Edgar Hall
Everett, WA Lawyer with 16 years of experience
Free ConsultationBankruptcy, Collections, Consumer and Foreclosure Defense
University of San Diego School of Law
My practice is focused is focused on resolving debt issues, protecting assets, and litigation regarding the same for individuals and small to mid size businesses. Prior to founding Washington Debt Law, PLLC, I worked at one of the largest creditor side law firms, representing financial institutions in bankruptcy, eviction, foreclosure, and litigation matters.
Having both creditor and debtor side experience brings a nuanced approach in dealing with creditors as I am familiar with their tactics, budgets, resources, and how best to find an effective approach. Our major solutions focus on litigation, settlement, bankruptcy, and out of court...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Shane McKinnie
Everett, WA Attorney with 10 years of experience
Free ConsultationCriminal Defense, DUI & DWI, Estate Planning and Military
Seattle University School of Law
Attorney Shane McKinnie is a former criminal prosecutor, and has experience working for both large and small law firms in the Seattle area. Shane approaches his cases from a practical perpective and above all, seeks to help his clients solve their problems in the way that best suits their circumstances and desires.
Shane is a fourth-generation Washingtonian and military veteran. He grew up in Snohomish County and attended Washington State University where he was a member of the Honors College and president of a fraternity. Shortly after graduating from WSU, he attended Navy Officer Candidate School (OCS) and was commissioned as...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Richard Lowell
Duvall, WA Lawyer with 38 years of experience
Free ConsultationPepperdine University School of Law and University of Colorado Law School
Growing up in New York and Pennsylvania, Rick attended the U.S. Naval Academy, graduating with a degree in Oceanography in 1978. Figuring he should put his knowledge of the oceans to some practical use, Rick became a nuclear-trained officer and served aboard the USS Patrick Henry, a nuclear submarine, until 1983. At that point, realizing that a continued career in submarines might let him see the light of day for one of every ten years or so, Rick elected to head off to law school. As he explained to the squadron commodore, "Perry Mason always surprises; L.A. Law is intense;...
Claimed Lawyer Profile
Tony Swartz
Ellensburg, WA Lawyer
Free ConsultationCriminal Defense and DUI & DWI
Willamette University College of Law and Central Washington University
Tony Swartz is an experienced lawyer in Washington State focusing on DUI defense in Kittitas and Yakima Counties. He has handled an estimated 10,000+ criminal cases in his collective career. He has also dealt with various types of other cases, including administrative law hearings, Superior Court cases, District Court cases, and more. In addition to his legal practice, he is recognized as an expert in the field and routinely teaches classes at both Central Washington University and Yakima Valley College.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
David P. Abeyta
Ellensburg, WA Attorney with 15 years of experience
Free ConsultationPersonal Injury
California Western School of Law
David P. Abeyta is a second-generation personal injury lawyer. He works in the areas of plaintiffs’ personal injury and wrongful death claims, including auto accidents, workplace injuries, and school injuries. Abeyta works primarily out of the Abeyta Nelson Yakima office.
Abeyta is a life-long resident of Yakima, Washington. After graduating from West Valley High School, Abeyta went on to study at Washington State University and graduated in 2005 with a degree in Political Science. Abeyta continued his education at the California Western School of Law, graduating in 2009. Abeyta joined Abeyta Nelson Injury Law in March 2010. He is a partner...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Dale Robbins, M.D.
Liberty Lake, WA Attorney with 36 years of experience
Free ConsultationMedical Malpractice, Personal Injury and Social Security Disability
University of Montana School of Law
Former Social Security staff attorney and senior attorney. Current boutique law practice specializing in Social Security disability, medical/legal issues, consulting and seminars. Medical Doctorate awarded in 2006, with highest honors in all clinical rotations served at Atlanta Medical Center, Fulton Medical Center and Emory University Hospital. MBA and executive experience. Master of Education with teaching experience in business law, criminal law, medical ethics and clinical medicine.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Casey A Quiroga
Spokane Valley, WA Lawyer with 17 years of experience
Bankruptcy and Immigration
Gonzaga University School of Law
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Dean Ralph Brett
Bellingham, WA Lawyer with 53 years of experience
Free ConsultationPersonal Injury
Stanford University
I grew up on Badger Mountain, in Eastern Washington, on a dry land dirt farm in an area the locals refer to as "Poverty Point." No TV. No electricity. No inside plumbing. But we did have books -- lots of books. I talked before I could walk, and carried a book everywhere, so my dad used to pat me on the head and say "This one's going to be a lawyer." He knew what kind of a lawyer I would be: a lawyer for real people, not a lawyer for big corporations -- a lawyer for the little guy...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileQ&ASocial Media
Michael D. Whipple
Spokane, WA Lawyer with 14 years of experience
Free ConsultationBusiness, Estate Planning and Probate
Gonzaga University School of Law
Providing a wide range of quality legal services with a personal commitment to each client. We specialize in: Business Law, Estate Planning, Legal Guardianship Law, and Probate. At the Whipple Law Group, PLLC in Spokane, Washington we seek to inform and educate our clients so that they, in turn, may make informed decisions with regard to their case. We reduce the mystery and assist our clients in their navigation of the legal system. Personalized attention and ‘going the extra mile’ has and will continue to remain hallmarks of the Whipple Law Group, PLLC, approach to client relationship...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Michael John Walker
Spokane, WA Attorney with 36 years of experience
Free ConsultationWorkers' Comp
Gonzaga University School of Law
For 36 years I have limited my practice to representing injured workers and Social Security claimants. I do not represent insurance companies or the Dept of Labor & Industries. The Worker’s Compensation system can be convoluted, confusing, and technically challenging to injured workers. I am proud to say that throughout my legal career, I have been blessed to represent, hard-working, honest, and worthy individuals who have unfortunately sustained injuries that have a devastating impact on work capacity, financial status, and familial relationships. In this area of the law, I represent the underdog. I am proud to do so. I...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileQ&ASocial Media
Diane Renee Broderson
Spokane, WA Lawyer with 6 years of experience
Family
Gonzaga University School of Law
Born and raised in Spokane, Diane Broderson combines a lifelong connection to the area with a passion for family law. After earning a degree in Social Services from Whitworth University in 2012, Diane pursued a legal education at Gonzaga Law School, graduating in 2017. Family law became her focus from the day she applied to law school, leading to active involvement in the field as Vice-President and later President of the Family Law Club at Gonzaga.
As both a mother and stepmother to six children, Diane brings personal insight and empathy to every case, understanding firsthand the complexities and emotions that...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Vanessa K. Mathisen
Spokane, WA Lawyer with 8 years of experience
Immigration
Gonzaga University School of Law
Under the guidance of Vanessa K. Mathisen, Esq., Allium Law PLLC focuses on delivering immigration legal representation to the Spokane community and throughout the broader state of Washington. With extensive experience, skills, and a profound understanding of immigration law complexities, Vanessa is well-equipped to navigate your legal case to success. Beyond her legal acumen, Vanessa contributes her academic insights as an Adjunct Professor in Immigration Law & Policy at Whitworth University.
Our devoted legal team is committed to providing top-tier legal services to all clients, including those in need of translation assistance. Recognizing the uniqueness of each immigration case, we customize...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial MediaResponsive Law
Mark Richard Iverson
Spokane, WA Lawyer with 36 years of experience
Free ConsultationGonzaga University School of Law
Mark Iverson facilitates adoptions for birth mothers and adoptive parents in Eastern Washington and Northern Idaho. Mr. Iverson is a fellow of the American Academy of Adoption Attorneys. Mr. Iverson also practices in the area of guardianship and surrogacy.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Julie Twyford
Spokane, WA Lawyer with 45 years of experience
Free ConsultationCriminal Defense, Divorce and Family
Gonzaga University School of Law
For four decades, Attorney Julie A. Twyford has dedicated herself to the pursuit of justice and fairness through the law. Regarded as a prominent trial lawyer in Spokane, WA and surroundig citiies, she focuses exclusively on family law and criminal defense.
In the realm of family law, Ms. Twyford's extensive experience and leadership ensure her clients receive unparalleled representation. Her expertise encompasses contested divorces, intricate child custody disputes, and complex business divorces.
As a distinguished Spokane divorce attorney, she has consistently secured favorable outcomes, infusing her wealth of experience into each case she handles.
Beyond family law, Ms. Twyford's impact in criminal...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial MediaResponsive Law
Jason Johnson
Spokane, WA Lawyer with 12 years of experience
Free ConsultationCivil Rights, Criminal Defense, DUI & DWI and Personal Injury
Gonzaga University School of Law
Attorney Jason Johnson has a wide range of experience which makes him an aggressive litigator. After serving multiple DUI sentences and being incarcareted himself, he knows the legal system "ins and outs." No other attorney knows the humility of serving clients in jail. Also, with ten years of experience in the military as a Tank Officer, Jason knows how to communicate effectively and handle the pressures of the courtroom. He was deployed overseas four times and received a Bronze Star with Valor.
Jason grew up in Coeur d’Alene and has a background in construction. As a project manager, he has...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial MediaResponsive Law
Brad A. Meryhew
Seattle, WA Attorney with 27 years of experience
Free ConsultationCriminal Defense, Juvenile and Municipal
Seattle University School of Law
Brad Meryhew is a highly respected and dedicated advocate who specializes in defending individuals facing accusations of sexual misconduct in both state and federal criminal courts in Washington. With a proven track record of success in jury trials, negotiations, and case dismissals, Brad has established himself as a prominent trial attorney in this challenging practice area. Moreover, his commitment extends beyond the courtroom, as he has played a pivotal role in driving improvements within the statewide sex offender management system through his advocacy for policy changes spanning fifteen years.
Throughout his career, Brad has handled numerous high-profile cases, demonstrating his proficiency...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
David Neubeck
Bellingham, WA Lawyer with 24 years of experience
Elder, Estate Planning and Probate
University of Minnesota Law School
After graduating cum laude from the University of Minnesota in 1999, I spent a year clerking for a judge in Wisconsin before moving to Whatcom County in the summer of 2000. Before coming to the Elder Law Offices of Barry M. Meyers, I was in-house counsel for the Lummi Nation with my practice focusing on human resource issues, governmental administration and criminal prosecution. My practice now focuses 100% on Elder Law. It is exceptionally rewarding to provide guidance and support for people as they face the complicated issues associated with aging. The work is made even more...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Josh Lowell
Duvall, WA Lawyer with 12 years of experience
Free ConsultationEstate Planning, Insurance Claims, Medical Malpractice and Personal Injury
Seattle University School of Law
Home-grown in the Seattle area, Josh was raised in his dad's law firm. Soon enough Josh realized that he wanted nothing more than to follow in his father's footsteps. Josh and his high school sweetheart went off to the University of Washington, both with the desire to attend law school. They both graduated the UW in three years and headed off to Seattle University to complete their legal training. With his girlfriend now his wife, Josh was pushed to his best and made easy-work of law school.
With their law degrees under their belt, Josh and his wife, Sarah, began their...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Max Jeffrey Meyers
Bothell, WA Lawyer with 26 years of experience
Free ConsultationPersonal Injury
Seattle University School of Law
Personal injury attorney Max Meyers has been the voice of the individuals in Washington State who have been seriously harmed physically or mentally by the negligence or wrongdoing of another person or entity. Max has devoted his career to fighting for the rights of those who have been seriously or fatally injured in motor vehicle accidents, and helping them recover the compensation to which they're entitled.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Jacqueline Clark
Bellevue, WA Attorney
Arbitration & Mediation, Divorce and Family
McGill University Faculty of Law
Jacqueline Clark is a licensed Family Law Attorney in both Washington State and in the Province of Ontario, Canada. Jacqueline specializes in highly contentious cases for division of assets including high net worth family businesses and litigating the enforceability of pre-nuptial and settlement agreements. She has appeared in front of the British Columbia Court of Appeals on a Hague Convention Child Abduction Case and was a part of a legal team that took a child custody matter up all the way up to the Supreme Court of Canada. Throughout the course of her career, Jacqueline has become a trained Divorce...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Rick Edward Jones
Seattle, WA Attorney with 29 years of experience
Divorce and Family
Seattle University School of Law
Rick is a founder and Managing Partner of Goldberg Jones. He continues to provide a level of “hands on” support that is invaluable to each office. His personal integrity and professional ethic largely influence who we hire and how we practice law. One can certainly see Rick’s stamp on nearly every aspect of Goldberg Jones.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial MediaResponsive Law
Jessica Eaves Mathews
Seattle, WA Lawyer with 29 years of experience
Free ConsultationIP and Trademarks
Seattle University School of Law
Jessica Eaves Mathews, founder of Leverage Legal Group®, is passionate about providing exceptional, flat-fee trademark registration services to clients in all 50 states. She has been doing trademark legal work for clients since 2008, and has been a business lawyer for over 28 years. She is licensed in Washington and New Mexico, and is admitted in front of the United States Patent and Trademark Office for her trademark work for clients nationwide and around the world.
Jessica represents businesses and business owners, from solopreneurs, to mom and pop stores & restaurants, to professional service-providers, to Fortune 500 companies and some of...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileBlawg SearchSocial Media
Mark Blair
Seattle, WA Attorney with 30 years of experience
Criminal Defense, DUI & DWI and Domestic Violence
Seattle University School of Law
Seattle criminal defense lawyers at Blair & Kim, PLLC have had the privilege of handling over 15,000 criminal cases making them some of the best in town. If you are facing charges for a criminal offense, whether it be petty crimes such as a traffic violation or disorderly conduct or a more serious offense like theft or a violent crime, this is the firm to seek out. With years of experience on their side you can trust that you will receive the dedication you deserve fighting for your case.
In the event that you are looking for a Seattle divorce...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Steven Shaw
Seattle, WA Lawyer with 22 years of experience
Free ConsultationInsurance Claims and Personal Injury
Seattle University School of Law
I represent individuals with claims for injury or damage against insurance companies and other entities. I have practiced personal injury and insurance misconduct law since November of 2002. I reject marginal claims, and try to focus on serious personal injury or significant property damage.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial MediaResponsive Law
Alice Bagirova
Everett, WA Lawyer with 10 years of experience
205 E Casino Rd
Suite B-8
Everett, WA 98208
Free ConsultationDUI & DWI, Divorce, Family and Personal Injury
Seattle University School of Law
Alice Bagirova is a Washington state attorney practicing in King, Snohomish and Pierce Counties. She obtained her juris doctorate degree in law at Seattle University in 2014 and has been building her practice ever since. Prior to passing the bar, Alice: volunteered in a domestic violence clinic at Santa Monica's Courthouse in the state of California; she completed an externship at the Legal Aid Foundation of Los Angeles; worked through the family law fellowship program at East Side Legal Assistance Program (ELAP). For ELAP, Alice represented clients in family law matters and protection order hearings pertaining to Domestic Violence.
Alice’s professional...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Sandy Van
Yakima, WA Attorney with 17 years of experience
Free ConsultationPersonal Injury and Products Liability
UNLV William S. Boyd School of Law
Sandy Van is the managing partner and founder of Van Law Firm Injury and Accident Attorneys, a personal injury, mass tort, and sex abuse litigation law firm located in Las Vegas, Nevada, and Lakewood, and Yakima, Washington, and Legal Support Help, a legal staffing company. She is a personal injury attorney licensed to practice law in Nevada state and federal courts and Washington state and federal courts. She also has co-counsel relationships with attorneys nationwide and accepts cases nationwide.
The growth and development of both Van Law Firm and Ms.Van’s personal career have not gone unnoticed. Nevada Business Magazine named...
Claimed Lawyer Profile
Jacey Liu
Bellevue, WA Attorney with 14 years of experience
Free ConsultationPersonal Injury
Willamette University College of Law
A graduate of Willamette University College of Law, where she was presented with the Distinguished Legal Writing Award for her contribution to the International Human Rights Clinic and the Civil Rights Award in 2010 for her legal writing in the area of civil rights litigation. Jacey now practices exclusively as a trial attorney handling serious injury, wrongful death, and civil rights cases for civil plaintiffs. Feel free to contact Jacey for a free consultation.
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial MediaResponsive Law
Jason Benjamin
Everett, WA Attorney with 29 years of experience
Arbitration & Mediation, Divorce, Domestic Violence and Family
Seattle University School of Law
Jason Benjamin has spent the past 23 years immersing himself in the intricacies of Family Law and particularly Child Custody cases. He has personally handled more than 1000 cases where child custody is at issue.
He particularly welcomes families who have emergency custody, domestic violence or restraining order issues, as he can typically obtain appropriate orders within hours to protect you and the children.
From the beginning of his legal career, Jason has aggressively advocated on behalf of victims of domestic violence (even when domestic violence was not treated seriously by the courts). He understands the complexities of...
Claimed Lawyer ProfileQ&ASocial Media
Jadrian Michael Coppieters
Mercer Island, WA Attorney with 5 years of experience
(206) 236-1500
3035 Island Crest Way
Suite 201
Mercer Island, WA 98040
Free ConsultationEstate Planning, Probate and Tax
Georgetown University Law Center and Georgetown University Law Center
Claimed Lawyer ProfileSocial Media
Ray S Pollari
Bellevue, WA Lawyer with 30 years of experience
Arbitration & Mediation, Divorce and Family
Gonzaga University School of Law
Ray Pollari is a well-established family law attorney. He has over 27 years’ experience of litigation and mediation in numerous counties across Washington State. Ray has also served as a C.A.S.A Guardian ad Litem and a Family Law Guardian ad Litem in both Juvenile and Superior Courts. That experience has given him a unique perspective on custody disputes and how the courts view the “best interests” of children. Over the years, Ray has dealt primarily in divorce cases, parentage, and domestic violence. He also has experience with prenuptial contracts, restraining orders, military family law, and parenting modifications. Before Ray...